Yep, this is what I expected.

Comment threads are loaded with “yes-men” and boot-lickers.

It looks like this one is also full of people with severe reading comprehension issues. Instead of suggesting a self-help book to me, why not actually read what I wrote above and you’ll see I never said a positive attitude was not an attribute that contributes to success.

What I said is that Mark exaggerated its effect and made the leap that one could do things with a positive mindset that simply aren’t true in many cases.

I give up trying to get you all to take off your rose-colored glasses and read what I actually wrote now. Keep your heads in the clouds and enjoy yourselves.

Another way to see persistence in action is to walk the halls of a children’s hospital and see the great lengths a mother will go to save her child. The movie Lorenzo Oil shows a mother who did just that and help many other children with the same condition as her son. Without a medical background and astonishing even the “expert doctors”

The best book ever written on the subject was the book of Napolian Hill who wrote Think and Grow Rich. The book was a 20 year project for Mr. Hill who studied 500 of the richest men in history. You May recognize these men… Henry Ford, Theodore Roosevelt, Thomas Edison, Dr. Alexander Graham Bell. Even if you don’t pick up the book, read the title “Think and Grow Rich”

A quote I read almost daily by Calvin Coolidge “nothing in the world can take place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The Slogan PRESS ON! Has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.”

When you mention those that “succeed” without persistence and that it may be shear luck.. well most of them will have their ups and downs and their success will probably be short lived. When studying Think and Grow Rich, I saw many successful people in their stories, unconsciously have developed these principles as described in the book.

All the best to you Doug. I hope you choose to pick up the book.

Love this post. It’s something I’ve always believed in throughout my life. How much do you want it? If you decide you want it and are prepared to hammer yourself into the ground in its pursuit you’ll achieve it. Sure you will fail sometimes along the way but when ever I did I’d ask myself ‘did you do all you could in that moment’? If you did you just weren’t ready yet but keep giving it your all and you’ll get closer every time. If you didn’t do all you could you need to ask yourself again if you really want it because if not all you’re doing is wasting your own time and that goal/dream will only ever be a dream.

Andy

Should you have not written the article–that’s not at all what I’m saying.

I would suggest that if you’re going to get involved in a back and forth (and I give you credit for posting all of this rather than censoring it–kudos for that) that you don’t misquote the person you’re going back and forth with!

I never said you “guaranteed” anything. If I did, please share the quote.

I never changed my argument. I began with saying you went to far and you’ve tailored your answers to scale back what you originally said, which is why I agreed with your last formulation.

Just look at your own quote: ““You can’t get a better job or earn more money? What if your mind was fully made up and you had 100% commitment? You’d get that job.”

Did you not say that if you fully made up your mind and hat 100% committment, you’d get that job?

That is going to far and perfectly illustrates my point, which I’ve maintained all along.

Lastly, I hope, is that you are now making it sound like luck is only involved in those who didn’t “decide” and fully make up their mind to succeed. Are you still one of the people that think that the successful people got there all because of their inherent abilities and not because of luck as well?

Speaking of asking any successful businessperson in the world (almost)… ask them that and I’m pretty certain you’d find that they would admit that they were very, very lucky, in addition to working hard.

Why are you finding it so hard to accept and/or admit that you may have exaggerated a bit in the article? It’s not a big deal… everyone exaggerates from time to time. It doesn’t detract from your earlier, more scientific articles.

@Doug. I didn’t move the goalposts. I stand by everything I said in the article. You haven’t made a coherent argument, and you’ve moved the goalposts 3 times.
(1) First you said the article was like those who claim you can ask the universe for what you want, and it delivers it.
I certainly did not make that point. But at least you admitted your error on that.
(2) Then you said I was claiming that having faith “guaranteed” your success.
I certainly did not make that point. Only that your odds of success dramatically improve with faith and persistence.
(3) Then you changed your argument a third time because some people get lucky. And? So what? What’s your point? Should I not have written the article because a tiny fraction of people succeed with luck?

🙁

Not used to debating I guess. You can’t keep moving the goal posts, Mark.

It may be important in many instances, but it’s not necessary. I’ll accept that, but it’s a far cry from where you started.

@Doug. No the argument doesn’t fail. Sure the odd person may get lucky from time to time, but surely no one setting out to be successful is going to count on that. Therefore, yes faith and belief in yourself is necessary unless you’re one of the 0.1% of entrepreneurs who get lucky. But the thing about that is that you don’t know before you begin your journey if you’re going to be one of those “lotto winners”.
Nor is this kind of success built on a solid foundation, since obviously certain external factors played a role in this “luck”. Therefore, since these factors will change, this success will be short-lived. Therefore, it’s clear – just as any long-term successful person will tell you – belief and faith in your goals is critical to stable and long-lasting success.

Sorry, but you don’t get to set up a straw-man and choose the 3 possible outcomes!

The mindset is actually not a necessary component to success. There are plenty of people that “take a shot” at something and succeed, to their utter surprise.

I believe we’re getting off track here though. I’m not denying that a positive attitude helps people go further than a negative one. At this point, I’m simply saying that maybe you should take a step back and see that you’re giving it too much importance–just look at your all caps “NECESSARY” pronouncement and you should see that.

Are you telling me that there is not ONE person who attempted something big and succeeded even when they thought they would likely fail? If there’s only ONE…just one time that was the case then your argument fails.

I’ll leave it at that, as I get the feeling that you don’t want to argue rationally about it.

-Doug

@Doug. I didn’t make the point that deciding means that you are guaranteed to achieve your goal. Nevertheless, this mindset is NECESSARY in order to do big things. It’s not an optional thing. Just ask any successful entrepreneur on the planet.

So there are 3 ways to go about this:

(1) Attempt nothing since there are no guarantees.

(2) Just “try” things and almost certainly fail as you do not have the mental toughness to persist when the inevitable challenges arise. Nor do you have the motivation that comes from having faith in your success.

(3) Believe in your ability to achieve your dream, as it is the necessary first requisite of success. While it does not guarantee success, if you persist over time, you dramatically increase your odds of succeeding.

So is it your point that you would recommend option (1) or (2) to people because, after all, your success is not guaranteed?

Okay, perhaps I misunderstood, but I have quoted below the statements that led me to believe that you took it a bit too far. Quite simply, just because one “decides” something does not mean they’re going to get there. I’ll use the example you gave in your own life. You said this site would succeed OR you’d die trying. While hyperbolic, that statement is at least coherent. Let’s assume that the site did not succeed. Therefore, you’re dead. So what did you do? You “decided” but “failed,” so therefore, you simply “tried.” Does that mean you didn’t REALLY “decide,” because if you did, then the site would have been successful? Of course not. it might mean any number of things: You simply didn’t have the talent and/or ability to write a decent site or book. Maybe you had the talent but at the point of time you made the attempt the general public was no interested enough in fitness to continue to read your site or spread the word. There are many other possibilities that don’t depend on whether you “decided with all your heart and mind” or “tried,” etc.

Sure, persistence is key in accomplishing anything difficult and in enduring through failure. But I’m afraid that’s about as far as one can reasonably take it.

(Your quotes follow)

“There is tremendous POWER in a “made up” mind! If you have truly decided, then your mind is made up. You are committed. You know where you are going – period! When the inevitable challenges arise in your pursuit of a goal, they don’t discourage the made-up mind. This guy will learn and grow from it and carry on. He or she KNOWS where they’re going. But the guy that is going to “try” to achieve something, feels defeated and sooner or later gives up.If you’re serious about doing things in life…there is no “try”. You either do it or you don’t.”

and

“You can’t get a better job or earn more money? What if your mind was fully made up and you had 100% commitment? You’d get that job.”

And the Arnold thing from Pumping Iron wasn’t actually true, guys 😉

This is not a “healthy” path, folks.

Arnold’s behavior is not something to emulate. As described below in the medical definition of “Obsession,” most reasonable people would think it UNreasonable to blow of a father’s funeral for a bodybuilding competition. One has one father, who has one death and funeral, yet there are countless bodybuilding competitions.

Do the math…

Medical Definition of OBSESSION
: a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling

I love your site, but I think maybe stay away from the self-help articles…

While the “gun to your head” example may work in the weight loss example, quite simply, it will not necessarily work when what you “decide” depends on factors outside of your control (ie. getting a job, becoming financially independent, getting the girl, etc.).

I realize your site is devoted to body building, and there’s no doubt that if one were as extreme as actually believing there was a gun to their head they would work harder towards that goal than if they didn’t believe that, but in reality that mindset is practically impossible to achieve.

This whole article smacked of those books from the so-called “gurus” that say things like, “The Universe is just waiting for you to tell it what you wants, then it will GIVE it to you! Now everyone, scream out, or better yet, write down, what it is that you DEMAND from the Universe! You deserve it!!!”

-Doug

I also find what helps is becoming obsessed with your goal. Keeping it fresh in your mind, whether it’s reading articles, going over your previous spreadsheets or even searching for new recipies (for diet). A majority start it, initial woosh of something new, wears off because of tired, bored, etc. Even a simple piece of paper written goals to read over every night before bed.

All the great positive thinking advocates that sell self help all say you have to keep it fresh in hour mind or negativity comes back